I dunno. I don't like Hillary either, but I've heard things about Obama that aren't that thrilling, too. Personally, I don't think either of them are good candidates. Then again, I'm not totally up on politics so I can't actually debate this for real (and if I did start debating, I have a feeling it'd go around in circles and start irritating people for no purpose since it isn't like anyone's opinions are going to change, especially with my lack of back-up for my arguments). But what I find amusing, or interesting, or both, is that on my flist, the question is always, "Obama or Hillary???"

Is everyone on LJ a Democrat? (And of course I know the answer to that is no :P But that's how it seems! Is it just that it's more fun to debate Obama or Hillary since McCain is rather boring?)

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No politician is without some issues. They're calling Obama the Next JFK, which I think is the shittiest ploy ever.

And I don't know about everyone else, but I'm a dirty stinkin' liberal.

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Actually, my mom says that Obama reminds her of Bobby, not John. She's been saying that for years. She's a little worried that he's going to get shot, too.

Also, they called Bill Clinton the Next JFK. I think that was probably a more accurate one, at least for the womanizing :-P

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haha Did they? I think I was a little young to be following along during that election. Clinton was a douche. He also ran a pretty mean country.

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I have some Republican friends on LJ, but I have found that so many Republicans are either disappointed with Bush or disapprove of how heavily the Republican opinions are being swayed by Evangelical Christians that they are planning on voting Democrat in this election.

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That's interesting. I actually know people who are the opposite, they are so displeased with the candidates for the Democrats that they feel like they're going to just have to vote Republican. But a lot of those people are not necessarily sworn by being either party, they vote more for whichever candidate they like better, so I suppose I don't know any die-hard Democrats doing that.

And I like Evangelical Christians. They are pro-Israel (admittedly for reasons different from mine, but still, pro is pro!) :D

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It's not a good thing to like a group based on one political leaning. Evangelical Christians as a group (I mean I'm speaking generally and not about one person in particular) are Pro-Israel largely because they are racist, and they are also violently anti-choice and violently anti-gay. You don't want people who spew that kind of hatred on your side for any reason; that's not a good way to make alliances. Remember that a lot of people were okay with the Nazis because they thought they were good for the economy and didn't think the crazy hate part would ever get 'too bad.'

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This is true. But then again, there's always going to be SOMETHING wrong with one group or another, so you do have to pick and choose which issues are most important to you. For me, it's more important that someone be pro-Israel than, say, pro-gay, mostly because I don't know any gay people and acting gay is against my religion anyway (I say acting gay because actually BEING gay isn't something someone can help, but it is against the Torah to act on it). Truth is, I don't necessarily LOVE Evangelical Christians, but having someone in office who is pro-Israel is EXTREMELY important to me, probably much more so than it would be for you or for a lot of other people.

Also, most of my comments on politics are making light of all these situations anyway, since I don't know enough to discuss them seriously and because everyone else gets so heated up.

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...Except that they're not really pro-Israel? They just hate brown people for being brown and especially not Christian, and Judaism is closer to Christianity for them. And I would be concerned when you're talking about that kind of hate that they wouldn't settle for just getting rid of Muslims. Especially since my brother has been physically assaulted by Evangelical Christians for 'looking Jewish.'

Also, you do know I'm bisexual, right? I don't really make much of a secret of it so I'd be surprised if you didn't know that by now. You probably know more gay people than you think.

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They're not pro-Israel in the way that I'm pro-Israel, but they do believe that in order for the redemption to come, the Jews have to first inhabit Israel (or something like that) and that = them not giving us a hard time about it and siding with us about Israel in general, and seeing as most of the time we're sided AGAINST, every little bit we can get in our favor is helpful. I'm not an expert on this topic, but I've never heard of Evangelical Christians being violent towards Jews (or anyone, but again, I'm so not an expert so I dunno). When I said I liked Evangelical Christians, I didn't mean I was going to become best friends with them. I just meant I prefer a politician associated with them rather than, say, Obama whose church is kinda anti-semitic. I'm not saying Obama himself is anti-semitic, but then again, I'm not very trustworthy when it comes to that stuff and as far as I know, someone can say they condemn something (like Obama saying he condemns his church's anti-semitic statements) but believe something else. It has happened too many times in Jewish and Israeli history. I don't know WHAT to believe in his case, but I'm not very trusting.

Also, I had no idea you were bisexual. I know I do know a few people on the internet who aren't 100% straight, but not in my real life circles of society (wow, awkward sentence).

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I think that's a horribly naive position to have. I love you dearly, you know, and I'm a Jew myself... but I wish you fully understood the wrong in what you're saying. Not from a political standpoint, from a moral one.

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It could be. I'm pretty naive, especially when it comes to politics. This is generally why I don't get into political debates (even though I sort of have, here). Most of the time, I don't really know what I'm talking about.

This is also why I have a fear of voting. I simply don't understand the issues enough to feel confident putting in my two cents where it counts.

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This isn't political at all. This is turning a blind eye to hatred simply because this group doesn't want "darkies" in Israel. That's just unacceptable to me. I am embarrassed as a Jewish person to think that anyone would support their ideals simply because they like white people. They don't like Israel. They don't like Jews. They like white people. And you can't play the ignorant card when Tea just now told you what they're doing and why and you still argued. That's not right.

I don't care if you vote for Ron-freakin'-Jeremy. I care that the way you're representing Israelites and those for their success is, to put it plainly, pretty appalling.

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Wait wait wait - WHAT? I don't know what you're talking about. Like, I honestly don't. I already SAID I don't know and when Tea told me what they were doing, she didn't TELL me, she told me of one instance, and I said I had never heard of anything like that. I'm willing to be told, but send me to articles or something!

And honestly, I don't know enough about Evangelical Christians, when I made the original comment, I never intended for it to be taken this seriously. It's not like I'm in love with them or would vote for someone simply because they were aligned with Evangelical Christians. But, in my little knowledge of them, they didn't seem too bad to me. Enlighten me since I appear to be so wrong. But to me, I never knew Evangelicals were racists. I thought they believed everyone should be Christian, but as long as they don't FORCE people to be Christian, I don't really care what they want me to do, but I really had no idea they were racist in terms of white/dark or anything like that.

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I know wiki isn't the best source, but here is a quote from the Christianity and antisemitism page:

The Southern Baptist Convention (SBC), the largest Protestant Christian denomination in the U.S., has explicitly rejected suggestions that it should back away from seeking to convert Jews, a position that critics have called anti-Semitic but that Baptists see as consistent with their view that salvation is found solely through faith in Christ. In 1996, the SBC approved a resolution calling for efforts to seek the conversion of Jews "as well as for the salvation of 'every kindred and tongue and people and nation.'"

Most Evangelicals agree with the SBC position, and some have similarly been supporting efforts specifically seeking Jews' conversion. At the same time these groups are among the most pro-Israeli groups. (For more, see Christian Zionism.) Among the controversial groups that has found support from some Evangelical churches is Jews for Jesus, which claims that Jews can "complete" their Jewish faith by accepting Jesus as the Messiah.

That's not the best example. If I can find more, I will, but I have to run to work.

I really do apologize if I misunderstood you. It sounded like you were defending the Evangelicals simply because they think the Jews should be in Israel.

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It sort of was what I was doing, but mostly because I didn't really realize there were other issues involved. When Tea said they were racist, I thought she meant they thought everyone should be Christian, but since I've never really had or heard of experiences with Envangelicals, I didn't know they would forcibly try to convert people (I also didn't know that Jews for Jesus was Evangelical) and to me, as long as they didn't try to make everyone be like them, I didn't really mind what they were thinking.

So then I take it back. Sorry about all the fuss.

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Shira, I'm not really sure how to say this, but you shouldn't be this ignorant. The level of lack of knowledge, especially on an issue that you profess to be very important to you is scary because this is basic stuff that most educated people know, and you're more educated than most people.

That's what Evangelical means-- there are lots of different kinds of Evangelicals, but when someone is an Evangelical Christian versus just a Christian, it means they actively try to make people convent. It's what the word "evangelism" means-- you preach with the intent of turning people to your faith. We're not talking about something any more complicated than the definition of the word.

The idea that Evangelicals like Jews is a very new one that has come about since post 9/11 mainly by white supremacists. The entire alliance is basically built on the idea that both groups hate Muslims more than they hate each other. If you want to know how disgusting it is, there is actually an active radical Zionist group in Europe that is working with the neo-Nazis because they think that Muslims are less white than Jews and should be gotten rid of first. It's completely sickening to me that a Jew would ever deign to work with someone who identifies with Nazis, but there you have it. It's very recent, and creeps me the hell out that these people are trying to make Jews believe they like them when pre-9/11 and even now, these are the same people who were saying Jews should die for killing Jesus. You have heard people saying "The Jews Killed Jesus," haven't you? They've been saying this for centuries.

What really concerns me about your choices is that you've chosen to close yourself off from a lot of things and that makes you ignorant on topics. It's not good. And when you profess ignorance, it's better to ask questions than to argue a stance when you don't know what is at the root of that stance. And closing yourself off to learning about these things-- seriously, I thought this sort of stuff was common knowledge even for people who don't know a lot about politics-- is really not good. It concerns me because I feel like people are deliberately keeping things from you that most people know, and for someone who is pro-Israel and has an important stake in that position, you should be more educated about it than most people, not less.

I'm trying to think where to start, but I don't know what you do know and don't know. Have you read Ann Coulter's TV interview where she tried to convert the guy interviewing her and talked about how Jews need to perfect themselves by becoming Christian?

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It's not that people aren't teaching me things and I'm really not closed off at all, it's just that I, personally, do not follow politics, do not keep up with a lot of the news and rely mostly on just what people are talking about or what I happen to see someone blog about, etc. not for any religious reason or deliberate reasons but just because I devote my time to other things - I'm not a politics or news junky. Also, I never learned about Evangelicals, I've never known an Evangelical, I don't know a ton about Christianity in modern times really at all. I know more about, like, Christianity in medieval literature because that sort of stuff I learn about in English class. Or, like, Protestant vs. Catholic stuff. But all the other sects and everything, I really would have no way of knowing. I don't take history or polisci or sociology in school because those don't interest me - so you're right, there are plenty of people in the world I just don't know about.

Yes, of course I have heard about people saying the Jews killed Jesus, I know all about blood libels, etc. I KNOW Jewish history.

Also, any reason why a Jew would hate a Muslim has absolutely NOTHING to do with being white. A lot of Jews themselves aren't even white. It has to do with Jewish/Muslim issues that have been going on for a looooong time. And my understanding of Evangelicals was that they had this particular view that in order for their redemption to come, the Jews had to inhabit Israel so therefore that would make them pro-Israel. That's all I was trying to say. I'm open to hearing that I'm wrong, but that's just what I had been trying to say. It's not that I was trying to disagree with you, it's that I was trying to tell you what I had heard. And I did also believe that Evangelicals thought we would all go to hell if we didn't believe in Jesus, but I didn't really care about that because since I didn't believe I was going to hell, as long as no one forced me to convert or anything, I didn't really mind what they thought. Even the Jews for Jesus guys who stand on street corners - I just roll my eyes at them. I was not aware that anything violent was going on.

I didn't ask you any questions because I didn't even know what questions I was supposed to be asking. I know I don't know everything about Evangelicals - and I'm really okay with that, anyway. I don't feel that I need to know everything, but I am definitely open to hearing what I am wrong about (and I don't mean that in a rude way) and being corrected.

I think that part of this problem is that you and I come from such drastically different backgrounds, so something that seems obvious to you is not obvious to me, and I'm pretty sure there are things obvious to me that will not seem obvious to you. But I think that's okay. It's alright not to know everything and that's why people are constantly learning. I'd have no way of knowing about a lot of the stuff you know because I never went to school with people different from myself in anything really big (such as religion), I was never taught about modern Christianity because, I dunno, a fluke I guess, since I never took the right classes for that and I don't keep up with the news and everything. But certainly no one is keeping me from anything. I can learn whatever I want to learn and know about whatever I want to know about, I just never had the desire to learn this stuff.

As for Ann Coulter - I did read it. But I thought everyone sort of agreed she was crazy?

So basically, at the end of all that, I'm certainly open to hearing what I'm wrong about.

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I'm aware of what the political problems between Jews and Muslims are. I'm not saying that Jews are all racist (although some people of every group are racist, or xenophobic, and that is always going to be a problem) The problem is that there are White Supremacist groups taking advantage of the problems with Jews and Muslims to get Jews on their side because they've decided to target Muslims because they're racist (the white supremacist groups, that is). The whole concept that Jews have to be in the promised land is a newly popularized one and not really universal among Evangelicals at all-- it's something that they're pushing because it means killing more brown people right now.

The other broader political issue is that Muslims have not been quick to adopt 'Westernized' viewpoints the same way that a lot of other people are. There are a lot of rampant anti-Semites who are pro-Israel just because they are xenophobes and think it is better to have people who are 'more Western' and more likely to be American or British allies there than to have people who don't have a lot in common with us. Or people who think that if American allies controlled the entire Middle-Eastern region, oil would be cheaper, so they don't give a shit who's there, as long as we're allied with them.

The point is that picking your allies is really important. If someone agrees with you for all the wrong reasons, you don't want them on your side, because it makes you look bad. If someone is a member of the KKK or a neo-nazi or preaches hate from the pulpit every Sunday at church, you don't want those people on your side, no matter what.

And I've never taken a poli-sci course either. I don't watch the news on TV. I didn't take history and I only took one sociology course. That's what I mean about this stuff being common knowledge to most of the world. I don't take a deep interest in it either, but that doesn't mean I don't know it.

I'd have no way of knowing about a lot of the stuff you know because I never went to school with people different from myself in anything really big (such as religion), I was never taught about modern Christianity because, I dunno, a fluke I guess, since I never took the right classes for that and I don't keep up with the news and everything. But certainly no one is keeping me from anything. I can learn whatever I want to learn and know about whatever I want to know about, I just never had the desire to learn this stuff.

I think this is a terrible misconception. You seem to think that this is stuff that the rest of us learn in school. We don't. We see it every day in our daily lives. And you're using your upbringing and habits as an excuse for not knowing it. That's a reason to educate yourself, not an excuse not to know better-- especially on a topic that you're claiming is so important to you.

As for Ann Coulter, no, that's exactly the problem. She sounded crazy to everyone you know-- but crazy to the people who agree with her? Absolutely not. That's the point, is that she has a huge following of people who believe exactly what she is saying and don't think it's crazy. She's speaking for them.

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You seem to think that this is stuff that the rest of us learn in school. We don't. We see it every day in our daily lives. And you're using your upbringing and habits as an excuse for not knowing it. That's a reason to educate yourself, not an excuse not to know better-- especially on a topic that you're claiming is so important to you.

No, you're missing my point. Yes, you see it in your daily life. I don't. We live in completely different circles and have had very different experiences. You probably know a lot more people different than you than I know who are different than me. Yes, I live somewhat in a bubble of Judaism. But I am also completely, 100% okay with that and I don't wish to live any differently. I don't live an insular life, just a life within my comfort zone. I'm not one of those Jews who blocks out every form of secular life, but I don't really have a desire to start submerging myself in a culture that is not my own, either. Therefore, I have much less experience than you do when it comes to knowing about different kinds of people.

As for what I'm claiming to be important, Israel is important to me. Evangelicals are not.

The other broader political issue is that Muslims have not been quick to adopt 'Westernized' viewpoints the same way that a lot of other people are. There are a lot of rampant anti-Semites who are pro-Israel just because they are xenophobes and think it is better to have people who are 'more Western' and more likely to be American or British allies there than to have people who don't have a lot in common with us. Or people who think that if American allies controlled the entire Middle-Eastern region, oil would be cheaper, so they don't give a shit who's there, as long as we're allied with them.

This is so interesting to me because most of the Western people I've read about and seen are completely pro-muslim and pro-palestinian because they believe we are persecuting the Arabs in Israel and in Gaza and they go on whole rampages about human rights and how Israel is occupying territories and killing innocents.

Besides, this is going to sound so naive, but doesn't America have freedom of religion? People can preach all they want, but I can't imagine any sort of forced conversions or acts of anything of that sort going on for real in America. Then again, people said that about Germany too, but still. It would be un-Constitutional.

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Yes, you see it in your daily life. I don't.

Well, take a more active role in your own education. You're sheltered. You can't argue that... so do something about it. The world isn't about Judaism. Your world may have a lot to do with it, but the fact of the matter is there's so much more that you're missing... and it's truly frightening to me that you can say what you're saying and believe it and argue it so adamantly because honestly - you sound just as crazy as Ann Coulter. You've created this world and these views that are so skewed... it's just scary.

It's frustrating because I know how much better you are than to go about insisting there is nothing out there but your little Judaic bubble. The Amish don't use electricity, but they don't deny its existence either.

Being Jewish is not an excuse for being ignorant. I refuse to accept that because I'm a Jew and I went to hebrew school and I know the things that you know, but I also have common sense and an active interest in educating myself because I don't want to sound like an ignorant, close-minded ethnocentric. You and Ann Coulter aren't as far apart as you may think.

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I like pie.

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I like your pie. It's creamy.

SNAP.

ETA: That was really inappropriate of me. What I meant to say was:

You're a smug old bastard.

Edited at 2008-03-14 03:19 am (UTC)

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I never denied I was sheltered and of course I'm aware there are other things out there, but that doesn't mean I have to be an expert on ALL of them.

Look, I'm sorry you guys find my ignorance on this matter so monstrously offensive but at this point, if there's anything I want to know, I'm going to either look it up or ask my parents or a professor because this whole conversation makes me uncomfortable. As much as you probably think I'm being too defensive, I feel like I'm being attacked - and I felt that way right from the beginning of this thing where you were both so concerned about my apparent lack of education.

So thank you for bringing up these issues but I really don't want to discuss it anymore in this forum.

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